To begin with, broken valve seats are expensive.
How would you feel if you had to repair them again….in a week?
This is a partial list of vehicles and engines we have seen with this problem:
- Ford Escort 1.9 SOHC, Engine VIN Code J, 1986 thru 1996
- Ford Escort 2.0 SOHC, Engine VIN Code P, 1997 thru 2005
- Ford Focus 2.0 SOHC, Engine VIN Code P, 1997 thru 2005
- Jeep Cherokee 3.7 SOHC, Engine VIN Code K, 2002 thru 2010
- Jeep Liberty 3.7 SOHC, Engine VIN Code K, 2002 thru 2010
- Jeep Cherokee 4.7 SOHC, Engine VIN Code J,N,P 2002 thru 2009
- Dodge Dakota 3.7 SOHC, Engine VIN Code K, 2002 thru 2010
- Dodge Durango 3.7 SOHC, Engine VIN Code K, 2002 thru 2010
- Dodge Pick Up 5.7 Hemi, Engine VIN Code D, T, Z, 2003 thru 2009
- Dodge Ram Van 5.7 Hemi, Engine VIN Code D, T, Z, 2003 thru 2009
- Dodge Ram Wagon 5.7 Hemi, Engine VIN Code D, T, Z, 2003 thru 2009
- Dodge Charger 5.7 Hemi, Engine VIN Code H, 2005 thru 2009
- Dodge Magnum 5.7 Hemi, Engine VIN Code H, 2005 thru 2009
- Dodge Charger SRT 6.1 Hemi, Engine VIN Code W, 2005 thru 2009
- Dodge Magnum SRT 6.1 Hemi, Engine VIN Code W, 2005 thru 2009
- Dodge Viper SRT 6.1 Hemi, Engine VIN Code W, 2005 thru 2009
The following is an excerpt from an industry tech bulletin:
“Repeat engine failure has been reported shortly after first engine start on engines that had failed due to valve seat breakage. In these instances the original failure had been in the number one cylinder at the intake seat [but can occur in any] location. Subsequent engine failures in these instances has been traced back to debris that remained in either the intake or exhaust manifold. The debris found that re-entered the combustion chamber included particles of valve seat, piston/ring material from the original failure.”
When a valve job is to be performed, it may be common procedure for the technician to just pull the intake and exhaust manifolds back to provide just enough room to get the cylinder head off of the engine. Doing so does not allow ample ability to clean either manifold. When a valve seat comes out of its counter-bore it shatters into many pieces from impact. Those pieces from the valve seat may enter the intake and/or exhaust manifolds as the result of normal air turbulence. The cylinder head for this engine originally uses PM (powder metal technology) valve seats with an approximate depth of .286″ (7.264 MM). When these seats shatter, many pieces result.
For the reasons stated above, it is imperative that both manifolds be removed from the engine compartment and all debris removed. Failure to clean out the intake and exhaust manifolds could cause a repeat engine failure. One aftermarket PM valve seat manufacturer has found using different seat materials; processes and designs that have resulted in improved seat insert retention in the cylinder head for this engine. An additional tempering process has been implemented, which eliminates the embrittleness commonly found in PM [powdered metal] valve seats. These seats also have additional seat depth and a reduced leading edge chamfer. Those features provide increased seat to cylinder head contact area for better heat transfer. Inadequate heat transfer may have had a part in the original seat coming out of its counter-bore in the original failure. Once new seat inserts have been installed, they should be machined according to the machining angles the [OEM] has supplied. Doing so will offer optimum engine performance for this engine.’
On the Ford plenums, they’re easy to take apart, clean and put back together. The Chrysler Hemi’s are exactly the opposite. They are 2 pieces that are glued, for lack of a better word, together. Chrysler doesn’t offer them separately, only as a complete unit. There are late model headlight assemblies in use that are glued together, you heat them to separate them. I have passed that idea along to some customers but haven’t had any feedback. We have an ultrasonic cleaner that does an excellent job. To avoid any issues, we clean these suspect manifolds for our customers at no charge.
The worst part about this type of repeat failure is the vehicle owner is usually left holding the bag. The shop or mechanic says it’s not his (or her) fault, ‘All I did was install it!’ If the mechanic or shop has never seen this before, they’d have no way of knowing. On the other hand, most of us don’t read all the printed material we get with products. Most builders I know enclose a “warning” label or instructions pertaining to this. The machine shop or engine builder checks, all the new valve seats they installed are in place so it’s not his (or her) fault. If the engine was purchased through a broker or third party, it’s not their fault either. Who’s left?
In my opinion, Chrysler doesn’t want to admit (neither does Ford) they even have this issue. Presumably that is why I was unable to find any TSB’s (Technical Service Bulletin) listed for the suspect engines from Chrysler or Ford. I also called our local Chrysler and Ford dealers. My contacts there also confirmed there are no bulletins pertaining to this failure.
If this article saves one of you from the horror stories I read and see surrounding this problem, it’s worth the time I spent researching and writing it.
I have a 2008 dodge hemi 3500 truck and I just had cylinder 1 drop a valve seat. I pulled the intake and head off. Next stop machine shop. My truck has only 60k. I payed 45g for my work truck. I’m a vet and I’m pissed
My 2007 Magnum rt was running great, I stopped to get gas and it wouldn’t start. It then finally started, but sounded like the pistons were coming out of the engine.. I had it towed home, I havent looked into it yet, but Im sure it dropped a valve seat!!! Come on this was my toy!!!!
2005 magnum rt sucked valve Nummer 7 pistion cracked in half at 156000 that was a bad day. I put over size seats and guides. valve should never hit piston i broke a valve spring on new stroker motor at 8000, valve stayed and i was so relieved
I have a 2005 Chrysler 300c which the valve seat has broken twice in ten years. Under warranty the first timeand now no warranty. Its a 3700.00 job. Why hasn’t Chrysler recalled these engines? This is a rip-off !!!
i recently rebuilt the 3.7 in my in-law’s 2002 Liberty. a nephew overheated the engine and the head gasket let go. as a result, the passenger side head was “JUST” out. as i recall, it was just .004 beyond the acceptable limit when checked with a straight edge for warpage. i sent the head with cam and caps to a reputable shop to have the head rebuilt with all new valves. i reassembled the rebuilt engine (after same shop bored cylinders and sourced rebuild “kit” with new piston set) and the thing ran like a champ. my in-laws later informed me that the engine was making a ticking noise, from the right side. the right intermediate pipe with the cat on it was problematic, so i initially thought it could be the exhaust… but with only 100 miles on it, i had to invest in a borescope. i found that the rear cylinder had metal in it. from the valve seat coming apart. Ofcourse, the shop wants no part of it, and both myself AND THE SHOP knew before hand that the engine had been overheated… and also that we both knew/know about the valve seat issues on this engine model. So. Now, I once again have someone else’s vehicle parked in my yard waiting to get one or two new heads. I’m just hoping the cylinder wall hasn’t been jacked up by metal flopping around in there.
Four days ago I brought my perfectly running Dodge Magnum (Hemi) into a lube shop to have my fluids checked and air pressure checked before I left town. Three minutes later when I tried to start my car to exit, it would not start. I had my car towed to Dodge and they told me that my #4 cylinder was shot and I needed a new motor. WHAT???!!!! My car didn’t smoke, never overheated, didn’t burn oil, and never had ANY indication anything was wrong. The service writer, service manager and mechanic told me today that the chance of my valve seat coming apart from the head was very, very, very rare (like 1 in a billion) and that they NEVER have to change these motors. I stumbled across this forum and after reading it, have decided to start a petition to have Dodge issue a recall on this issue. Dodge is obviously very aware of this issue and owners like me are stuck with the phenomenal expense of paying for their “glue” job. See the above page- “The Chrysler Hemi’s are exactly the opposite. They are 2 pieces that are glued, for lack of a better word, together. Chrysler doesn’t offer them separately, only as a complete unit.” I am requesting that any Hemi owner that has experienced this same issue contact me so I can add your name to the petition I will be starting. I will also post a link to the petition on this forum as well. Thank you for listening….my Hemi is my baby and I took VERY good care of her!
Alternately you can message me via facebook or at firstname.lastname@example.org
Yes same problem. 2006 5.7 hemi junk Jeep developed a miss fire. Plugged in my scan tool and and code read #4 MSD solenoid bad. Took a compression test on that cylinder and read 00. Removed head and found dropped valve seat and severe damage to piston and scratched cylinder wall.
2002 jeep liberty dropped # 2 valve seat and ruined engine prematurely.
I’m Curt and i own a 2005 Dodge Ram with a 5.7 Hemi . And at 100 thousand miles mine dropped three valves and took out two pistons as well . Sounds like to me someone needs to do something to resolve this issue with this valve inserts . Because if you have not had this issue yet you will …..
Parked my 05 Grand Cherokee with 3.7. Ran flawless when parked. Fired it back up next morning for work and started clanking like a piece of junk. Mechanic assessed dropped valve seat. Valve blew a hole in my valve cover. 111,000 miles on it. The 1998 jeep we gave my son with the 5.2 has 245,000 miles on it and still going. My wife and I want our old jeep back.
2004 Dodge Ram hemi with 46k miles. Yup, valve spring broke. Babied this thing, kept in the garage it’s whole life, looks like it rolled off the showroom floor. Si 1 spring broke. So now do I replace all of the springs? Nah, I’m selling this time bomb. At the dealer now. Will know if the motor took a big or little hit in the morning. This was my first and last dodge! Dodge builds crap! Never again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have a 4.7 Dodge, these engines are over-engineered for our day to day practical needs. The overhead cam trash looks like an attempt at engineering an indy engine for the street. What a total cracker jack prize, complete piece of junk, I feel like running straight to a trade in when I get this engine freshened up, mine left me with a $600.00 tow bill 170 miles from home. the 4.7 is un-necessarily over-engineered with the chain driven overhead cams for more moving parts to fail, but hey it’s their engine not mine. Powdered iron valve seats destine to deliver destruction and the first engine ever capable of destroying a valve cover when a floating rocker arm is kicked thru it’s side. I’m not a engineer but I could engineer a valve seat that would not fall out, ever see the u-joints that were held in place with injected plastic? use the same principle only with injected steel epoxy or aluminum and the seats are in the head to stay. This nation was founded under Common, natural law, never changing moral principals. Those days are gone, all for the o-mighty dollar, now here we are with Designed Obsolescence… When you buy a vehicle you’re purchasing a Carefully engineered Ticking Time Bomb right down to the life of rubber seals, Auto engineers have Destructive labs, they know exactly what their putting on the streets when a vehicle is sold. They have computer monitors all over the engine yet no bi-metal switch to sense abnormally high engine temperatures and kill 4 cylinders when over heating occurs. Sold my old truck with the 5.2, 318 @ 240,000 miles and two years later with 270,000 it’s still going strong. Wish Dodge would have kept the 318, now I’m told the 4.7 has been dropped. It’s without doubt… not for the same reason as the 5.2. I stated previously… Engineers have highly advanced destructive laboratory’s and they know exactly what their selling and about when and what will fail at a given mileage Drop a seat M/F’er!!!
@Anonymous – if you understood a little more of how a cylinder head operates you would know why ‘permanent’ valve seats are not used. If they were, there would be no such thing as a valve job. We would have to replace the cylinder head each time there’s an issue with carbon build up, etc.
have a 06 3500 and a 04 2500 both 5.7 hemi motors with almost 135xxx on each. valve train is wiped out on 04 and 3 collapsed lifters. heads are fine tho. no problems as of yet. but gonna send the suckers in for new seats and springs just so I don’t get burned later. anybody else in my position……spend the money now, it will save you a bunch later. too many horror stories. really do like the motor tho. just has a horseshit top end.
So, we also have an apparent valve problem, # 5 apparently has no compression and also ONLY 105,000 miles. WTF ???
Paid 35,000 dollars for the truck of my dreams, to find out all this bullshit, so what can we do about it ???
Does anyone know what we can do ???
Would really appreciate any help st all, I am now a single mother (husband passed away)
With VERY little money. Any kind of help will be much appreciated, thank you for your ear.
I have an 06 dodge Daytona with the 5.7 hemi only 90 thousand miles on it, was running fine wife shut off car and came back out later and would not start a friend came out to see if he could help finally got it started and made a noise like metal on metal found out I have dropped seat valve. I like the car but last year I just put three new computers in it that was bad now this shi## looks like a money pit
I used a leaf blower to clean all the metal dust and pieces from my 2005 Magnum. It worked great!!!
Mine was a 2002 dodge ram 1500 vin N 4.7 at 142,049 miles filled up at a gas station and bam everyone hit the ground and whole back of intake blew off with a fireball. Valve seat on #4 dropped into many pieces damaging head and cylinder wall plus piston demolished. Was gonna put engine back together without taking off other head, glad i took other head off. It sucked 3 pieces through the intak over to the other side embedding them into #3 piston. I got it all rebuilt and glad the intake blew up because if i would have resued it it would have been chaos due to the hot pieces of valve seat 2 more embedded themselfs into the intake like glue melted but if i hit a bump just right bam there goes 3600 engine again! Do not resue intake with this catastrophic failure you dont know what is in that intake! Got 1900 miles on it now with fingers crossed and rebuilt heads no problems. I have many pics if i could post to help someone wish i could upload for you to see. Thanks Vance!
I have a 2000 Ford Escort with the 2.0 liter SOHC engine. It’s currently at 135,000 miles. At this point, it’s still running very well, but at any point it could drop a valve seat insert. When that happens, the car is not worth the cost of labor and parts to replace the engine. It would have to go to Mr. Wrecking Yard since it’s already 18 years old.
I checked the price on a re-manufactured 2.0 Escort engine and one place wanted $2,659 plus a refundable $350 core charge. I assume that is a representative price. Imagine he shipping costs on that operation! Assuming a day or two of shop labor at $90 per hour and you have far exceeded the value of the vehicle.
I made that mistake with an ’86 Ford Taurus a few years ago. The transmission went out and I had it rebuilt for $1,800. Two years later I sold the car for……..$1,800 LOL.
I have a 2006 Dodge Charger Hemi RT. 80,400 miles. Treat her like a princess. Oil changes every 3,000 miles, only used middle grade gas, never ran low on oil, never ran hot, never dogged her out. Love the car. Never any big issues other than oil changes, new tires, fluid changes, a few recalls, air bags, etc. I was running errands and stopped to get water, came back out and tried to crank my car and it would not crank and made clanking noises. Towed it to Dodge, they said engine knock. Wanted a 2nd opinion since they have bad rep in my town. Local mechanic said cylinder value needed to be replaced. After reading numerous Dodge forums it looks as though this happens alot. And a car that is well taken car of, garage kept and treated better than gold should not be blowing a cylinder head at 80,400 miles by sitting in a parking lot and being cranked. It’s ridiculous. Something should be done about this. This is not fair to the loyal Dodge owners. WE should be reimbursed either with new motor, or reimbursed with money we have spent to try and fix this huge problem that Dodge is saying sorry, nothing they can do. It’s faulty parts or put together incorrectly. I was planning on keeping this car another 30,000 plus miles or so then buy a new Dodge. But NOT NOW. NOT after this huge let down. We also have 3 Dodge Ram 1500 Trucks with Hemi engines, I hope and pray this same thing doesn’t happen to them. By the way, they told me at the Dodge Service Dept., that my engine would cost 9,180.00. When the car was running well, it was only worth 7,500 or so. I love my car. And this happens and not my fault. Makes me ill. So unfair, it sucks. As well as I have taken care of it, it should have lasted me for years. It still looks great, just the engine is totally blown, while parked when tried to crank it. So WRONG. Should have been a paid recall by Dodge Dealerships. Should have honored it. Or REFUND for all the thousands of Dodge owners who have put out good money to replace or rebuild engine.
2006 Dodge Magnum 5.7 Hemi. Bought with a dropped valve seat and ruined piston.
Rebuilt with “improved heads with all oversized seats”
169 miles later another dropped seat and ruined piston, this time it ruined the cylinder.
heat soak seems to be the issue with the dropped valve seats. by driving your car and then just stopping the motor the heat in the exhaust gets really hot and can cause this. let your engine idle for 30-60 secs for your quick stops, let the heat transfer via the cooling systems. also, i run premium gas in my hemi to avoid any pre detonation problems which can damage heads and generate more heat. a knock sensor only adjusts it after the knocking aka pre detonation happens and the damage is done. read up on it if you don’t believe me. i’m at 68500 on my r/t magnum and no problems so far. i run mobile 1 full synthetic oil and get the coolant changed every 3 years regardless of the mileage. i don’t like a/c so i rarely have mine on and that adds to engine heat as well. i decarbonized the engine at 50k. i always idle my engine prior to shutting it off to help avoid heat soaking the engine.
I have a 2015 Dodge Ram 1500 hemi bought with zero miles, single owner 3 1/2 years ago. Same thing wrong with my vehicle as described and fighting with the dealership right now. I still have 2 1/2 years of car payments!! Any advise is greatly requested.
the PROBLEM IS the heads are aluminum the seats are steel, expansion rate is different, Iron heads are best and more durable like the Jeep 4.0 never had this problem, I have one a 96 Cherokee 422k still running fine passing emissions, leaks a little oil from a rear seal but I’m cool with that. Have a 5.9 RAM 160k doing good because it has IRON heads.
I love my dodge truck. Wish I seen this earlier.
My 2006 ram had the same problem. Now I’m out a vehicle. And I cant afford 3k for a new motor much less buy a diffrent vehicle. I really wish dodge wpuld own up to it. If anyone knows how to get dodge to pay or fix my motor let me know.
06 hemi charger,dead cyl.smoke,nice car,gonna drop a 360, in,fix it rite,lol
Never knew about the “valve seat drop” until it happened to me at 88,000 miles. Now looking into it and find hundreds of others it has happened to. Only option I see that is right is to rebuild the head with stainless valve seats and have them pinned and that’s close to $4000 including removal and install of the engine. This dodge boy is getting out of dodge. You lost a customer for life.